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[00:00:00 - 00:00:09] SPEAKER_00: welcome to huberman lab essentials where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health physical health and performance

[00:00:11 - 00:00:46] SPEAKER_00: i'm andrew huberman and i'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at stanford school of medicine and now for my discussion with jocko willink jocko willink welcome thanks for having me man in my view and i think in the view of a lot of people you embody discipline so today i definitely want to talk about routines but also mindsets but also things that you do and ways that you approach things that might not contradict but not be so obvious to people might be a little bit counterintuitive there are generators and projectors and generators are people that are just from a very

[00:00:46 - 00:01:12] SPEAKER_00: young age they realize they can impact other people they want to create things in the world and then they're these projectors that like to just kind of reflect on what they see and it's not the generators are good and projectors are bad the world needs both that they really work in a kind of symbiotic way but your story captures the essence of what it is to be a generator which is that by doing certain things you can have an impact and it feeds back to you and it's likely that they

[00:01:12 - 00:01:46] SPEAKER_01: receive something from it as well yeah and where this all came to fruition as i as i now piece together as you're talking through this stuff look when i joined the military you join the military and you get a blank slate no one cares what you got on the sats or the and no one cares about anything you're a blank slate and then with that blank slate it is hey if you do this thing if you perform this task and you perform it well you will get recognition you will hopefully get more control over your own destiny

[00:01:46 - 00:02:16] SPEAKER_01: destiny which is the ultimate in compensation for for human beings to have more control over your own destiny you can have all the money in the world but if you don't control what you're doing every day or at least you don't control most of what you're doing then it's not worth it the reason people try and make money is so they can have more autonomy in their life and so in the military it became very clear to me very quickly that if i performed well i actually got a lot more freedom with what i did

[00:02:16 - 00:02:40] SPEAKER_01: that's when i started to realize oh what i'm doing right now is going to impact not only what's going to happen to me in the next hour but in the next two years three years five years the more i focused on doing things that are going to positively impact my future the better my life became and i think that's a very huge lesson to learn that i know i didn't figure out for quite some time i get the impression

[00:02:40 - 00:03:03] SPEAKER_00: and i think everyone gets the impression that you're somebody with a lot of energy and i wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy and you feel like you have to burn it off with this physical activity and and work and other demands in your life or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral and exercise and physical activity gives you energy i would say it's both

[00:03:03 - 00:03:34] SPEAKER_01: right there's no way i could sit here and say oh yeah every day that alarm clock goes off and i'm like oh yeah let's rock and roll not certainly that's not the case it's also certainly not the case that every day i'm like oh god not again no uh i'd say most of the time the alarm clock goes off and i i don't think a bunch like when my alarm clock goes off i don't debate with myself i'm not negotiating i i just the thing goes off and i'm doing what i'm supposed to do sort of robotic now i this this much i can say when you go and work out you're going to feel better you will get energy from

[00:03:34 - 00:04:09] SPEAKER_01: working out you go break a sweat you're going to feel better this you're going to get more energy from it and look you got to go really really hard to where now you feel more tired when you're done and even that i mean you got to go psycho i'll do that occasionally but i don't do that on a daily basis you know at the end of the day if i wake up lift run surf and then i do jujitsu in the afternoon like at the end of that day i'm tired and i feel tired uh but normal day working out just makes you

[00:04:09 - 00:04:14] SPEAKER_01: feel better it definitely gives you it definitely gives me energy the idea that movement and exercise

[00:04:14 - 00:04:35] SPEAKER_00: gives us energy i think is an important idea and it's something that i was frankly i was hoping your answer would be that as opposed to that you know you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because you have so much energy getting out of bed because frankly i never feel that way but i always feel better after i train do you nourish after you train or do you find that

[00:04:35 - 00:04:51] SPEAKER_01: eating slows you down i find that eating slows me down so no i don't eat a big meal until i'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day which is usually at night six seven o'clock at night which i guess there's some bad things about that i eat too late well the data say you know if you're

[00:04:51 - 00:05:01] SPEAKER_00: having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep well at night whatever that means for you and that allows you to be active and focused when you need to be active and focused that's the ideal

[00:05:01 - 00:05:33] SPEAKER_01: schedule when i'm working with clients like so i have a leadership consulting company echelon front when i'm going to work with a client i'm not eating because because they're going to be asking me questions we're going to be diving into what's happening inside their business like there's a lot of stuff going on it's a lot of cognitive work podcast i'm not eating before a podcast before i'm recording a podcast i'm not eating because i don't want to have a bunch of food in my stomach i want to you get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food so going out on missions i never would eat before i go out on a mission i would eat when i come home you get home four o'clock in the morning three o'clock in the morning from doing operation cool then i'll eat

[00:05:33 - 00:05:44] SPEAKER_01: because then i'm going to do a debrief for 15 minutes clean weapons and then eat a big meal go to sleep sleep cool yeah i don't want to have food in my stomach when i've got to perform or execute

[00:05:44 - 00:06:13] SPEAKER_00: anything so much of what you embody and what you do i think centers around this idea of discipline of course but also energy it's the intuitive sense i get about why people are so drawn to your messaging and what you do and how you do it are there certain forms of exercise like weightlifting versus cardio that you find give you an especially big boost in what we're calling energy and here this could be cognitive energy it could be physical energy but a readiness for the next thing i would

[00:06:13 - 00:06:32] SPEAKER_01: have to say like the the high intensity sort of anaerobic blast you know whether it's on the bike or on the rower or you know swinging a kettlebell hard something like that that last 10-15 minutes that's a really good way to you know peak my mentality for the day when you were in the teams

[00:06:33 - 00:06:55] SPEAKER_00: what was your observation about how winning and losing would impact people in the short and long term from the perspective of leadership and maybe more importantly from the perspective of yourself how do you work with that how do you calibrate wins and losses how do you transmute losses into energy because wins we know convert to energy but losses oftentimes can sap our energy way way down

[00:06:55 - 00:07:33] SPEAKER_01: to start with i think that the selection process to get into the seal teams is going to weed out a bunch of people that can't recover very quickly from something bad the kid that was the star of the football team the star of the basketball team the captain of this the captain of that he's been winning his whole life he goes to buds and he quits because in buds you're not going to win you're certainly not going to win everything they're going to find what you're not good at and they're going to exploit that and you're going to lose a lot of guys that may lose and it disrupts their their motivation

[00:07:33 - 00:08:09] SPEAKER_01: they're probably just going to quit and so that's why you get this massive attrition rate with guys that are studs division one athlete division one wrestlers division one football players division one runners and swimmers they all come to buds they all quit not all of them quit but there's plenty of examples of the highest level of collegiate athlete in sports that translate very well to what you're doing in in basic seal training and they quit and sometimes it's because they don't know how to lose they don't know how to recover from a loss so i think already and once you get to a seal team you've

[00:08:09 - 00:08:43] SPEAKER_01: got people that are generally speaking going to be pretty resilient when it comes to dealing with a loss now once you're in the teams and what you're talking about is now you start taking much more significant loss you're not losing a race you're losing one of your friends and this is what from a leadership perspective you have to you have to pay attention to so when you're a leader in any organization you're basically in charge of a mob when it comes to what their morale is and they feed off of each other just like a mob riding in the streets going oh we can break this window let's break all the

[00:08:43 - 00:09:14] SPEAKER_01: windows and they they move this mob mentality and that happens with morale inside of a team and you as a leader can't get caught up with the mob you have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and their morale because if you get caught up in their emotions and you get caught up in their morale you can't correct it so we go out on a mission the mission goes great we get into a gunfight kill a couple bad guys everyone's okay high fives

[00:09:14 - 00:09:47] SPEAKER_01: everyone's feeling great you come back to base hey we don't need to debrief that was perfect hey we don't need to get our gear you know uh maintained we can just go to bed we we're awesome that's when the leader has to say oh we've got the mob and the mob is becoming slightly arrogant hey guys real quick that was a good op but there's some things we could improve on you got to bring that mob back and bring them back to center line same thing in the other direction you go out on an operation it doesn't go well you go out an operation you take casualties now you come back to base you see guys moping

[00:09:47 - 00:10:20] SPEAKER_01: around you see the the spirit starting to break and same thing if you get if you're part of that mob you'll be you'll be with them your morale will be breaking your spirit will be breaking you got to look and say oh i see what's happening hey guys listen up that was tough didn't go the way we wanted it to go we need to learn some lessons here's some things i can do better what can we do better to make sure that that never happens again so as a leader when it comes to winning and losing you're generally going to be the person countering what the mob mentality is because when the mob starts

[00:10:20 - 00:10:42] SPEAKER_01: winning they want to keep winning and they might get arrogant when the mob is losing they might start to lose more because their attitude goes down the drain so that's what you have to pay attention to from a leadership perspective for me personally i think i know what i did when when i lost guys

[00:10:43 - 00:11:16] SPEAKER_01: was focus on all right we need to we need to celebrate the life we need to move the law mourn the loss and then we need to go to work we need to get our gear back on we need to lock and load our weapons we need to get back out there i know that that's what we need to do you know so often the best way to contend with with problems with issues with adversity is action is by taking action the more you

[00:11:16 - 00:11:46] SPEAKER_01: sit and the more you wait and the more time you spend with that adversity with the upper hand inside your head the the worse it's going to get so for me always taking action making something happen it doesn't have to be huge it doesn't have to be some mammoth triumph that you're going to go and pursue but if you say hey listen this is what happened didn't go the way we wanted it to we're going to get our gear back on we're going to go back out we're going to do this other mission and it's in a in your

[00:11:46 - 00:12:15] SPEAKER_01: personal life too you know something doesn't go the way you wanted it to go you didn't get the job you wanted you didn't get the hire you didn't get the promotion you can go home and sit there and and and dwell on it that's not getting you any progress or you say okay you know what let me do a quick analysis why didn't i get that promotion oh it's because i didn't get this qualification or i hadn't jumped through this gate okay cool what do i need let me let me look into how do i how do i get to jump through that gate so next time i will get the promotion you start taking action action for me is a cure

[00:12:15 - 00:12:41] SPEAKER_00: for a lot of problems that we have in life i think that in the context of moderating these systems it's so key i mean it's key to have a long arc in a career path military science or otherwise as a father in particular how do you apply these same sorts of ideas when you know your kid is kind of down because it's hard to be a 14 year old or because it was a bad day or when they're up well

[00:12:41 - 00:13:13] SPEAKER_01: clearly it's a very similar thing to what i just talked about you know if your kid is doing well and and wins the wrestling tournament and is like yeah i won the wrestling tournament and what do they want to do they want to eat a triple cheese pizza right i mean they want to go crazy and you as a leader and as a and as a parent and as a friend need to say hey man i mean you did good that was awesome you had a great day but let's start thinking a little bit about next week too how about we just have a few slices of pizza right as a reward and this goes with yourself as well you know you you do

[00:13:13 - 00:13:48] SPEAKER_01: something you have a success and you say oh that that that's great uh but all glory is fleeting and i need to get back to work and look and do people go too far with that sometimes yes absolutely sometimes people they they don't stop and celebrate at all and those are the kind of people i think that get burned out eventually because they never say hey that was awesome we had a big win cool high five so i think you know as a leader as a friend as a parent as a spouse you want to be able to modulate that help modulate that don't shut it down you know your kid walks off the wrestling mat

[00:13:48 - 00:14:18] SPEAKER_01: with for a high five and you say you could have won by more no i'm not talking about that or your kid walks off the mat after losing you say you got what you deserve no you've got to be the counter counter the counterweight to the emotions that other people have when you're doing a good job as a leader as a friend as a spouse or whatever you're doing a good job as a counterweight i think that's a good way to look at it you want to you want to provide some balance for people to make sure that they don't get out of control and you you notice when people have a downfall it's normally

[00:14:18 - 00:14:52] SPEAKER_01: because they've surrounded themselves with people that there's no counter to there's no counterbalance you know if you were my best friend and i you know i went out drinking last night and had a great time and partied all night and met a girl and you're like heck yeah let's do it again tonight eventually where are we going to be we're going to be in the gutter somewhere but if you say hey dude that was awesome but hey remember we got school on monday right and you kind of pull me back that's we we got to find balance in life and ourselves and then and then we got as much as we can provide balance for other people because people are emotional and they get caught up in what they're doing and you want to

[00:14:52 - 00:15:26] SPEAKER_00: you want to keep people balanced you seem to have a very strong sense of context and self was there something in your upbringing your parents or or was it just kind of how you always imagined yourself as like yeah this is who i am because i actually think that many people do not have a very firm sense of self or their sense of self is so rigid that they can only operate in this like narrow trench of one domain of life and they end up very very isolated as far as kind of where i became me

[00:15:27 - 00:15:59] SPEAKER_01: i i just actually have to kind of give a lot of credit to the music that i grew up listening to and the attitude that we had back then listening to hardcore music being able to stand up against what other people were saying which is what you're doing when you're in that scene and the whole diy nature of it hey we we can just do this ourselves we can just make this happen for ourselves we don't need anybody else we can do this and that hardcore attitude and sticking by your friends and standing up

[00:15:59 - 00:16:31] SPEAKER_01: and getting in fights and like that's what you're going to do that's kind of my attitude that music is the soundtrack to my life and so i always would have that music running in my head but to your question i had something in me that when i heard that music for the first time i was like okay here it is you know here it is this is you know i hear the beatles i hear the grateful dead i hear the rolling stones i hear the whoever and you go okay that's fine but when i heard hardcore music for the first time

[00:16:32 - 00:17:02] SPEAKER_01: when i heard the chromex when i heard agnostic front when i heard the bad brains i thought it was that was just like it was part of me already i'm like a kid living in the woods in connecticut i i'm just kind of hearing what i'm hearing he listen to the lyrics listen to the lyrics of minor threat listen to the lyrics and and you go okay this stuff i agree with this stuff and i i just think that that kind of set a datum in my head of being okay with being outside being okay with saying no being okay with being

[00:17:02 - 00:17:35] SPEAKER_01: a rebel being okay with not going along with what everyone else is doing that became very important when i was in the military and i looked at what leadership might be telling me to do and might think to myself hey that doesn't seem like a good idea and having the the wherewithal to say hey boss i'm not sure this is a good idea not to be a jerk about it but just to say there might be a better way to get this done what do you think of this or hey boss can i ask you a question about that so i i think if i had to trace it back you know having black flag my war side two on my record player for like

[00:17:35 - 00:18:10] SPEAKER_01: a year and a half straight that's gonna leave a mark man and i think it left a mark on me what are your sources of motivation well you probably you probably heard me say that motivation isn't something that i am going to count on because it's just an emotion that's going to come and go just like feeling happy you feel happy right now maybe you won't feel happy in 15 minutes you feel sad now maybe you won't feel sad in 15 minutes you feel motivated right now you might not feel motivated in 15 minutes therefore i can't rely on it so i'm not going to put any money on just being

[00:18:10 - 00:18:28] SPEAKER_01: motivated because it doesn't really matter to me so the daily actions that i take aren't from motivation they're they're just from discipline like like i said earlier i'm not going to get up and go through some big debate about well really do i really feel like doing this no i don't feel like

[00:18:28 - 00:18:43] SPEAKER_00: doing this but it doesn't matter so i'm just going to go do it you've particular have said several times today rather than looking for sources of things outside you like a job or a relationship which are all great um but as sources of energy or motivation or inspiration to use action as a positive action

[00:18:43 - 00:19:16] SPEAKER_01: as a source of energy yeah and and positive action is when you have to contend with something when there's something that you're afraid of right step into it move towards it you don't solve problems by running away from them you solve them by moving towards them and figuring out what's going on then we could go down the whole path of talking about the indirect approach which is a theory of combat which i completely believe in but it also applies to you know interacting with other people if you have a problem with some other person to think to myself well i got i got a problem with

[00:19:16 - 00:19:50] SPEAKER_01: you i'm going to go confront him on it and that might not be this best solution in fact it's probably not the best solution for me to go confront you with the problem because now we're going to have a confrontation it might be better for me to take an indirect approach and not confront you but instead engage in a conversation with you about something that's maybe adjacent to the problem that i have and then eventually that builds our relationship to a point where you start to recognize oh i bet jocko feels something about this thing and we can move towards a solution instead of me trying to punch you in the face with some truth that i believe versus the truth

[00:19:50 - 00:19:59] SPEAKER_01: that you believe and now we're engaged in combat and that's bad there's going to be casualties i'd rather take an indirect approach and build a relationship where we can solve problems in a

[00:19:59 - 00:20:30] SPEAKER_00: more positive way i also heard you say something earlier that's still flagging in my mind which is you know not thinking too much and you've talked about third personning of the self i'd love to talk a little bit more about this even though it's a topic you've delved into before and in particular the topic of meditation do you meditate and if you don't do a kind of standard meditation are there times throughout your day in your routine in your week where as i'm describing this it maps to something that kind of feels like open monitoring or focused meditation yeah so no i don't

[00:20:30 - 00:21:00] SPEAKER_01: meditate i haven't ever i don't think i've ever actually meditated for one second in my life and i i i've never tried to do it that being said if the goal is to take a step back and detach from what's going on i do that all day every day and so you know that's that is something that i've talked about it's something i tried to teach you know i tried to teach the young seal leaders not to get caught up in what's happening right in front of them but to take a step back detach from the situation detach

[00:21:00 - 00:21:36] SPEAKER_01: from their emotions on the battlefield i want people to be able to see more angles more maneuvers more opportunities more of what the enemy might do more perspective and it goes to what i was saying earlier about the mob being able to be part of a team part of the mob part of the gang but still have the ability to take a step back detach from that and assess what is the best way for this team to move forward to me is the true superpower of life and you know this goes back to when you start talking about people that are having going through struggles in life right and i've described this

[00:21:36 - 00:22:15] SPEAKER_01: before as you know if i'm looking at you and you're you're in a bad state right you're depressed you're sad you're moping around you're not getting anything done and i'm looking at you from the outside and and and i'm thinking for me i see this storm cloud around your head all you see no matter what direction you look is storm all you see is darkness i'm outside i'm looking at hey man this guy's got a great education he's healthy he's got a good team around him like he's got all these things going for him but you in that state you literally cannot see anything but the darkness of the storm and that's

[00:22:15 - 00:22:49] SPEAKER_01: what's so scary about when people enter that mode is you can look i can look at it from the outside and be like andrew you just got to move like four feet forward and you're going to be through this thing and yet you're you might hear me say that and you go no jocko i'm looking ahead there's nothing but darkness so helping people move forward take action and be able to get that perspective detach and get outside themselves get outside their own heads you know tim ferris said get out of your head get into your body that's one way to do it take action go do things it's very scary and i'm sure you've had

[00:22:49 - 00:23:20] SPEAKER_01: this experience where you're talking to someone that you know and you're looking at them going hey man no it's gonna be okay like you can clearly see that whatever their whatever is bothering them and dragging them now you can clearly see you know a lot of times it's a relationship right the the girl the guy they got they got dumped and you go hey man that person was a disaster anyways you're better off without them and they cannot compute that they are stuck there or maybe it's the school that they didn't get into or the job that they didn't get and they get so wrapped up in that they can't they

[00:23:20 - 00:23:53] SPEAKER_01: can't get out of that storm it's such a helpless feeling and that's why trying to engage with people and trying to give people that superpower of detachment where they can take a step back and say you know what you're right man that that girl she wasn't who i really thought she was i should move on yes the solution to your problem is not going to be found in the problem it's not going to be found in there you have to get out of the problem so that you can look at it make an assessment and you can assess how to solve the problem or whether you need to solve the problem or not so detachment is a superpower

[00:23:53 - 00:24:00] SPEAKER_00: what is your process for engaging detachment or for disengaging i recognized like in a moment

[00:24:00 - 00:24:33] SPEAKER_01: what detachment was and how helpful it was on an oil rig doing a training mission my whole platoon is in a skirmish line looking at a large area of the oil rig that we're supposed to be clearing again it's not combat this is in the 90s there's nothing going on we're just doing training and i'm standing in this skirmish line and by the way i'm the youngest and most junior guy in my platoon and i'm standing there looking down the site of my weapon and i'm waiting for someone to make a call and tell us what to do and i wait for five seconds and i wait for 10 seconds and i wait for

[00:24:33 - 00:25:06] SPEAKER_01: 20 seconds and no one's saying anything and we're waiting for a leader in my platoon to make a call to tell us what to do tell me what to do and finally after like 30 seconds which seems like an eternity i can't take it anymore i take a step off the skirmish line i look to my left i look to my right and what i see is every other guy in my platoon is staring down their weapon which means their field of view is tiny it's like a 20 degree field of view you're looking down the the scope of your weapon or the site of your weapon and that's how big their field of view is i'm looking i'm thinking

[00:25:06 - 00:25:36] SPEAKER_01: oh there's my platoon commander he's looking down the scope of the site of his weapon there's my platoon chief he's looking down the side of his weapon there's my leading petty officer he's looking down the side of his weapon there's my assistant platoon commander he's looking down so everyone in the platoon is looking down the side of their weapon which means they all have have a very narrow field of vision. Well, when I take a step back and look to my left and look to my right, guess what kind of field of vision I got? I got a massive one. I can see the whole scene and I can see exactly what it is we need to do. Look, as a new guy, you need to keep your mouth

[00:25:36 - 00:25:41] SPEAKER_01: shut. You don't say anything. And I'm thinking, well, but no one else is saying anything.

[00:25:41 - 00:26:11] SPEAKER_01: So I muster up all the courage I can. And I open my mouth and I say, hold left, clear right, right, which is a basic tactical call. This is not a patent level genius maneuver. It's just a normal call to make in a situation that we were in. I say, hold left, clear, right. And I'm expecting to get kind of slapped, told, shut up, new guy. But instead, everyone just repeats the call. Hold left, clear, right. Hold left, clear, right. We get to the top of the oil rig, which means we cleared the whole thing. We're on the helo deck at the top and we go into a debrief. And now I'm expecting,

[00:26:11 - 00:26:15] SPEAKER_01: okay, now I'm going to get told, hey, what were you doing? You need to keep your mouth shut.

[00:26:16 - 00:26:21] SPEAKER_01: And instead the platoon chief goes, hey, Jocko, good call on the cellar deck down there.

[00:26:22 - 00:26:26] SPEAKER_01: And I was kind of like, yeah, that's right. But then I thought to myself, hold on a second.

[00:26:26 - 00:26:59] SPEAKER_01: If I'm the youngest, most junior guy in this platoon, why was I able to see what we needed to do and make that call? Why did that, why did that just happen? And then I realized it was because I took, took a step back. I broadened my field of view, which allowed me to think more clearly because instead of being hyper-focused and narrowly focused, I broadened my range of vision. I took a breath before I made my call, right? I had to take my, take a nice breath to speak clearly. And I realized that taking a step back and detaching, I got to see infinitely more

[00:26:59 - 00:27:30] SPEAKER_01: than even the most experienced guys in my platoon. And I started doing it all the time. And I started doing it in land warfare. I started doing it in urban combat. I started doing it in all these tactical training scenarios. These are just training. This is the nineties. I started doing these training scenarios and it always allowed me to see what we needed to do. Then I started doing it. Like when I was having conversations with people, I'm having a conversation with my platoon chief and I can see that he's starting to turn a little red in the face. And we're, we're about to argue about something. I said, Oh, wait a second. I'm taking a step back, looking, going, he's getting mad right

[00:27:30 - 00:28:00] SPEAKER_01: now. And he's the platoon chief. And I'd say, Hey, you know what, chief? That sounds good. Let me go take a relook at the plan or whatever. And so I started to do this kind of with my normal life was to not get wrapped up in my own emotions, not get wrapped up in the gun fight that was happening right in front of my face, not to get wrapped up in the details of what was going on, but instead take a step back, detach, look around, and then you can make a much, much better decision. Now, listen, if you

[00:28:00 - 00:28:19] SPEAKER_01: are the only person in a gunfight, it's going to be harder for you to do that. Cause you've got to be focused on whatever you're shooting at. But when you have 16 guys or 20 guys, they're all looking in the same direction. It's very easy to be the guy that goes on to take a step back, look around, make a call. When I teach this to people now, the mechanics of it, take a step back.

[00:28:20 - 00:28:56] SPEAKER_01: Literally you're at, you know, you and I are at a meeting. There's a bunch of people that starts to get heated argument. I will literally push my chair back away from the table, change my perspective perspective, open, widen my field of view. The other thing, like in the SEAL teams, you don't want to sound panicked on the radio for a couple of reasons. Number one, because when you panic on the radio, it's going to cause other people to panic. Number two, if you panic on the radio and you sound panicked, everyone's going to make fun of you. So what would I do before I would key up my radio? Take a breath. And so here I'm manually slowing down my breath. I'm broadening my field of

[00:28:56 - 00:29:30] SPEAKER_01: view. So if you're in a meeting or you're in a, you know, you're at the, at the supermarket parking lot and someone starts to yell at you, take a step back, take a breath, broaden your field of view, detach from those emotions that you're having and make some space. And I'll tell you, here's another like weird little nuance thing. Lift your chin up and put your hands down. When I get defensive, what am I going to do? I'm going to raise my hands up and put my chin down. That's like a fighting mode. So if you and I are having a discussion and I'm starting to get heated and I'm starting to like,

[00:29:30 - 00:29:40] SPEAKER_01: oh, he's not listening to me. Instead of me putting my chin down and put my hands like up, up to where I can put them in your face a little bit. No, I'm actually going to take a step back.

[00:29:40 - 00:30:18] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say, put my chin up. It changes my perspective a little bit more, changes my visual perspective, just by changing the angle of my head. Take a step back, put my hands down. I'm not being in a defensive mood. I actually want to hear what you have to say. And if I start listening to what you have to say and not talking, it's very hard to be detached when you're talking. It's another key component. You want to detach, shut your mouth. I'm in a meeting in my companies. I'm not the one that's doing all the talking. In fact, I'm doing mostly listening. And that way I'm detached. I'm listening to what they have to say. I'm more capable of seeing what holes there are in their plans by not

[00:30:18 - 00:30:49] SPEAKER_01: moving my mouth, not talking. I'm listening. So those are some of the methodologies that I use and that I advise people to use in order to effectively start down the pathway of being able to detach in various scenarios. It applies to everything that we do. If you're having a conversation with your significant other and you start to see that they're getting frustrated about something. Now, look, if you're in the conversation, a hundred percent, you're going to get frustrated too. You're

[00:30:49 - 00:31:11] SPEAKER_01: going to get frustrated. They're frustrated. Next thing you know, you've got an emotional argument going on. Whereas if you take a mental step back and say, wait a minute, why are they frustrated right now? Oh, because I'm trying to solve their problem when really what they're looking to do is vent. Okay, got it. Let them vent. Okay, cool. Oh, that sounds horrible. You know, what do you think you're going to do? Instead of saying, well, if that's the problem, here's what you should do.

[00:31:11 - 00:31:21] SPEAKER_01: Because people are always looking for that. So yeah, this thing, this ability is, and it's something that can absolutely be trained. And that's what's cool about it. It can absolutely be trained.

[00:31:21 - 00:31:31] SPEAKER_01: It's not a natural gift. Some people will be better at it than others, but it's something that you can train. And I used to see guys develop it. And I see people develop it now in the business

[00:31:31 - 00:31:42] SPEAKER_00: world. Do you think there's value to doing things each day that suck a little bit or from time to time doing something that's, you know, puts one into a state of deliberate discomfort?

[00:31:43 - 00:32:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, even in order to improve yourself, you got to impose some discipline on yourself, right? Just like you would develop your legs by doing squats and you would develop your back by doing pull-ups. I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions

[00:32:00 - 00:32:06] SPEAKER_00: of things that require you to be tougher. I just want to extend an enormous thank you.

[00:32:07 - 00:32:32] SPEAKER_00: You know, as a civilian, thank you for the work you did in the military, but also teaching people about the military. I think a lot of people don't realize what it's about at any level and learning about your experience there and what you've observed, bringing other people's experiences from the military more broadly is super important and sharing this and being able to entertain some of my scientific rifts. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There's plenty of people that have done

[00:32:32 - 00:33:02] SPEAKER_01: way more than I've ever done and, and sacrificed infinitely more than I ever sacrificed. So I'm, I'm thankful for being here. I know that you put all kinds of information and I, the same back at you, you know, I, I have greatly benefited from the information that you put out. And so I thank you as well and appreciate coming on here and appreciate you spreading the word about how people can be better yourself. So thanks for having me. I appreciate it, man. Let's do it again.


--- TRANSLATED TRANSCRIPT ---

[00:00:00 - 00:00:09] SPEAKER_00: bienvenidos a huberman lab essentials, donde revisamos episodios pasados en busca de las herramientas basadas en ciencia más potentes y prácticas para la salud mental, la salud física y el rendimiento.

[00:00:11 - 00:00:46] SPEAKER_00: soy andrew huberman y soy profesor de neurobiología y oftalmología en la facultad de medicina de stanford, y ahora, mi charla con jocko willink. jocko willink, bienvenido. gracias por invitarme, hombre. desde mi punto de vista, y creo que desde el de mucha gente, tú encarnas la disciplina, así que hoy definitivamente quiero hablar de rutinas, pero también de mentalidades y de cosas que haces y formas en las que abordas las situaciones que podrían no ser contradictorias, pero que no son tan obvias para la gente, podrían ser un poco contraintuitivas. hay generadores y proyectores, y los generadores son personas que, desde una edad muy

[00:00:46 - 00:01:12] SPEAKER_00: temprana, se dan cuenta de que pueden impactar a otras personas, quieren crear cosas en el mundo, y luego están estos proyectores a los que les gusta simplemente reflexionar sobre lo que ven, y no es que los generadores sean buenos y los proyectores sean malos, el mundo necesita a ambos, realmente trabajan de una forma casi simbiótica, pero tu historia captura la esencia de lo que es ser un generador, que es que, al hacer ciertas cosas, puedes tener un impacto y eso te retroalimenta, y es probable que ellos

[00:01:12 - 00:01:46] SPEAKER_01: reciban algo de eso también. sí, y donde todo esto cobró sentido mientras, mientras ahora reconstruyo todo esto mientras hablas de estas cosas... mira, cuando me uní al ejército, te unes al ejército y obtienes una hoja en blanco, a nadie le importa lo que sacaste en los sat o en... a nadie le importa nada, eres una hoja en blanco, y luego, con esa hoja en blanco, es: "oye, si haces esto, si realizas esta tarea y la realizas bien, obtendrás reconocimiento", y con suerte obtendrás más control sobre tu propio

[00:01:46 - 00:02:16] SPEAKER_01: destino, que es la máxima compensación para los seres humanos: tener más control sobre tu propio destino. puedes tener todo el dinero del mundo, pero si no controlas lo que haces todos los días, o al menos no controlas la mayor parte de lo que haces, entonces no vale la pena. la razón por la que la gente intenta ganar dinero es para poder tener más autonomía en su vida, así que en el ejército me quedó muy claro muy rápidamente que si me desempeñaba bien, en realidad obtenía mucha más libertad con lo que hacía.

[00:02:16 - 00:02:40] SPEAKER_01: ahí es cuando empecé a darme cuenta: "oh, lo que estoy haciendo ahora mismo va a impactar no solo lo que va a suceder conmigo en la próxima hora, sino en los próximos dos años, tres años, cinco años". cuanto más me enfocaba en hacer cosas que impactaran positivamente en mi futuro, mejor se volvía mi vida, y creo que esa es una lección muy grande que aprender, que sé que no descubrí hasta pasado bastante tiempo. tengo la impresión

[00:02:40 - 00:03:03] SPEAKER_00: y creo que todos tienen la impresión de que eres alguien con mucha energía, y me pregunto si te despiertas con mucha energía y sientes que tienes que quemarla con esta actividad física y el trabajo y otras demandas en tu vida, o descubres que te despiertas y tu energía es algo neutral y el ejercicio y la actividad física te dan energía. diría que es ambas.

[00:03:03 - 00:03:34] SPEAKER_01: exacto, no hay forma de que pudiera sentarme aquí y decir: "oh, sí, todos los días suena el despertador y digo: 'oh, sí, vamos a darle duro'", ciertamente ese no es el caso. tampoco es el caso que todos los días diga: "oh, dios, no, otra vez no". no, diría que la mayor parte del tiempo suena el despertador y no pienso mucho, como cuando suena mi despertador, no debato conmigo mismo, no estoy negociando, simplemente suena y hago lo que se supone que debo hacer, algo robótico ahora. esto sí puedo decir: cuando vas y haces ejercicio, te sentirás mejor, obtendrás energía de

[00:03:34 - 00:04:09] SPEAKER_01: hacer ejercicio, vas, sudas, te vas a sentir mejor, vas a obtener más energía de ello. y mira, tienes que esforzarte mucho, mucho, hasta el punto de que ahora te sientas más cansado cuando terminas, e incluso eso, tienes que volverte un loco, lo haré ocasionalmente, pero no lo hago a diario. ya sabes, al final del día, si me despierto, levanto pesas, corro, surfeo y luego hago jiu-jitsu por la tarde, al final de ese día estoy cansado y me siento cansado, pero un día normal, hacer ejercicio simplemente te hace

[00:04:09 - 00:04:14] SPEAKER_01: sentir mejor, definitivamente te da, definitivamente me da energía. la idea de que el movimiento y el ejercicio

[00:04:14 - 00:04:35] SPEAKER_00: nos dan energía, creo que es una idea importante y es algo que, francamente, esperaba que fuera tu respuesta en lugar de que te despiertas todos los días y simplemente quieres atacar al mundo porque tienes tanta energía al levantarte de la cama, porque, francamente, nunca me siento así, pero siempre me siento mejor después de entrenar. ¿te nutres después de entrenar o descubres que

[00:04:35 - 00:04:51] SPEAKER_01: comer te ralentiza? encuentro que comer me ralentiza, así que no, no como una comida copiosa hasta que termino con las cosas físicas del día, que suele ser por la noche, a las seis o siete de la tarde, lo cual supongo que tiene algunas cosas malas. como muy tarde. bueno, los datos dicen, ya sabes, si estás

[00:04:51 - 00:05:01] SPEAKER_00: teniendo un horario de comidas regular que te permite dormir bien por la noche, lo que sea que eso signifique para ti, y que te permite estar activo y concentrado cuando necesitas estar activo y concentrado, ese es el horario ideal.

[00:05:01 - 00:05:33] SPEAKER_01: cuando estoy trabajando con clientes, tengo una empresa de consultoría de liderazgo, echelon front, cuando voy a trabajar con un cliente, no estoy comiendo, porque ellos van a estar haciéndome preguntas, vamos a profundizar en lo que sucede dentro de su negocio, hay muchas cosas sucediendo, es mucho trabajo cognitivo. podcast, no estoy comiendo antes de un podcast, antes de grabar un podcast no como porque no quiero tener un montón de comida en el estómago, quieres, obtienes cierto nivel de claridad mental cuando no has comido un montón de comida. así que al salir a misiones, nunca comía antes de salir a una misión, comía cuando llegaba a casa. llegas a casa a las cuatro de la mañana, tres de la mañana, después de hacer una operación, genial, entonces sí comeré

[00:05:33 - 00:05:44] SPEAKER_01: porque entonces haré un informe de 15 minutos, limpiaré las armas y luego comeré una comida copiosa, iré a dormir, dormir, genial. sí, no quiero tener comida en el estómago cuando tengo que rendir o ejecutar

[00:05:44 - 00:06:13] SPEAKER_00: nada. gran parte de lo que encarnas y de lo que haces creo que se centra en esta idea de disciplina, por supuesto, pero también de energía. es la sensación intuitiva que tengo sobre por qué la gente se siente tan atraída por tu mensaje y por lo que haces y cómo lo haces. ¿hay ciertas formas de ejercicio, como el levantamiento de pesas frente al cardio, que encuentres que te dan un impulso especialmente grande en lo que llamamos energía? y aquí podría ser energía cognitiva, podría ser energía física, pero una preparación para lo siguiente. tendría

[00:06:13 - 00:06:32] SPEAKER_01: que decir que el tipo de ráfaga anaeróbica de alta intensidad, ya sea en la bicicleta, en el remo o, ya sabes, balancear una pesa rusa con fuerza, algo así, esos últimos 10-15 minutos, esa es una muy buena manera de, ya sabes, llevar mi mentalidad al pico para el día. cuando estabas en los equipos

[00:06:33 - 00:06:55] SPEAKER_00: ¿cuál fue tu observación sobre cómo ganar y perder impactaría a las personas a corto y largo plazo desde la perspectiva del liderazgo y, quizás más importante, desde tu propia perspectiva? ¿cómo trabajas con eso? ¿cómo calibras las victorias y las derrotas? ¿cómo transmutas las derrotas en energía? porque sabemos que las victorias se convierten en energía, pero las derrotas a menudo pueden minar nuestra energía enormemente.

[00:06:55 - 00:07:33] SPEAKER_01: para empezar, creo que el proceso de selección para ingresar a los equipos seal va a eliminar a un montón de personas que no pueden recuperarse muy rápidamente de algo malo. el chico que era la estrella del equipo de fútbol americano, la estrella del equipo de baloncesto, el capitán de esto, el capitán de aquello, ha estado ganando toda su vida, va a buds y renuncia, porque en buds no vas a ganar. ciertamente no vas a ganar todo. van a encontrar en qué no eres bueno y van a explotar eso, y vas a perder a muchos tipos que pueden perder y eso interrumpe su motivación.

[00:07:33 - 00:08:09] SPEAKER_01: probablemente simplemente van a renunciar, y por eso obtienes esta tasa de desgaste masiva con tipos que son unos cracks, atletas de primera división, luchadores de primera división, jugadores de fútbol de primera división, corredores y nadadores de primera división. todos vienen a buds, todos renuncian, no todos renuncian, pero hay muchos ejemplos del más alto nivel de atleta universitario en deportes que se traduce muy bien a lo que estás haciendo en el entrenamiento básico de los seal, y renuncian, y a veces es porque no saben cómo perder, no saben cómo recuperarse de una derrota. así que creo que ya, una vez que llegas a un equipo seal, tienes

[00:08:09 - 00:08:43] SPEAKER_01: personas que, en términos generales, van a ser bastante resilientes cuando se trata de lidiar con una pérdida. ahora, una vez que estás en los equipos y de lo que estás hablando es de que empiezas a sufrir pérdidas mucho más significativas, no estás perdiendo una carrera, estás perdiendo a uno de tus amigos, y esto es a lo que, desde una perspectiva de liderazgo, tienes que prestar atención. así que cuando eres un líder en cualquier organización, básicamente estás a cargo de una turba cuando se trata de cuál es su moral, y se alimentan unos de otros, igual que una turba que corre por las calles diciendo: "oh, podemos romper esta ventana, rompamos todas las

[00:08:43 - 00:09:14] SPEAKER_01: ventanas", y se mueven con esta mentalidad de turba, y eso sucede con la moral dentro de un equipo, y tú como líder no puedes dejarte atrapar por la turba, tienes que separarte de la turba mentalmente para no dejarte atrapar por sus emociones y su moral, porque si te dejas atrapar por sus emociones y te dejas atrapar por su moral, no puedes corregirla. así que salimos a una misión, la misión sale genial, nos metemos en un tiroteo, matamos a un par de tipos malos, todos están bien, choques de manos,

[00:09:14 - 00:09:47] SPEAKER_01: todos se sienten genial, regresas a la base, "oye, no necesitamos informar, eso fue perfecto, oye, no necesitamos mantener nuestro equipo, podemos simplemente ir a dormir, somos increíbles", ahí es cuando el líder tiene que decir: "oh, tenemos a la turba y la turba se está volviendo ligeramente arrogante". oye chicos, rápido, esa fue una buena operación, pero hay algunas cosas que podríamos mejorar. tienes que traer a esa turba de vuelta y traerla de regreso a la línea central. lo mismo en la otra dirección, sales a una operación, no sale bien, sales a una operación, sufres bajas, ahora regresas a la base, ves a los chicos deprimidos

[00:09:47 - 00:10:20] SPEAKER_01: por ahí, ves que el espíritu comienza a romperse, y lo mismo, si eres parte de esa turba, estarás con ellos, tu moral se estará rompiendo, tu espíritu se estará rompiendo. tienes que mirar y decir: "oh, veo lo que está pasando. oye chicos, escuchen, eso fue difícil, no salió como queríamos que saliera, tenemos que aprender algunas lecciones. aquí hay algunas cosas que puedo hacer mejor, ¿qué podemos hacer mejor para asegurarnos de que eso nunca vuelva a suceder?". así que, como líder, cuando se trata de ganar y perder, generalmente serás la persona que contrarreste cuál es la mentalidad de turba, porque cuando la turba comienza a

[00:10:20 - 00:10:42] SPEAKER_01: ganar, quieren seguir ganando y pueden volverse arrogantes. cuando la turba está perdiendo, pueden comenzar a perder más porque su actitud se va por el desagüe. así que eso es a lo que tienes que prestar atención desde una perspectiva de liderazgo. para mí personalmente, creo que sé lo que hice cuando perdí chicos:

[00:10:43 - 00:11:16] SPEAKER_01: fue concentrarme en: "muy bien, necesitamos, necesitamos celebrar la vida, necesitamos llorar la pérdida y luego necesitamos ir a trabajar. necesitamos ponernos nuestro equipo de nuevo, necesitamos bloquear y cargar nuestras armas, necesitamos volver allá afuera". sé que eso es lo que tenemos que hacer. ya sabes, muy a menudo la mejor manera de lidiar con problemas, con asuntos, con la adversidad, es la acción, es tomando medidas. cuanto más

[00:11:16 - 00:11:46] SPEAKER_01: te sientas y cuanto más esperas y cuanto más tiempo pasas con esa adversidad teniendo la ventaja dentro de tu cabeza, peor se va a poner. así que, para mí, siempre tomar acción, hacer que algo suceda, no tiene que ser enorme, no tiene que ser un triunfo gigantesco que vas a ir a buscar, pero si dices: "oye, escucha, esto es lo que pasó, no salió como queríamos, vamos a ponernos nuestro equipo de nuevo, vamos a volver a salir, vamos a hacer esta otra misión", y es en tu

[00:11:46 - 00:12:15] SPEAKER_01: vida personal también, ya sabes, algo no sale como querías que saliera, no conseguiste el trabajo que querías, no conseguiste la contratación, no conseguiste el ascenso, puedes ir a casa y sentarte allí y pensar en ello, eso no te está dando ningún progreso, o dices: "ok, ¿sabes qué? déjame hacer un análisis rápido, ¿por qué no conseguí ese ascenso? oh, es porque no obtuve esta calificación o no había pasado por este filtro". ok, genial, ¿qué necesito? déjame, déjame investigar cómo, cómo llego a pasar por ese filtro para que la próxima vez consiga el ascenso. comienzas a tomar acción. la acción para mí es una cura

[00:12:15 - 00:12:41] SPEAKER_00: para muchos problemas que tenemos en la vida. creo que en el contexto de moderar estos sistemas es clave, quiero decir, es clave tener un arco largo en una trayectoria profesional, militar, científica o de otro tipo. como padre, en particular, ¿cómo aplicas este mismo tipo de ideas cuando sabes que tu hijo está un poco deprimido porque es difícil ser un chico de 14 años o porque fue un mal día, o cuando están arriba? bueno,

[00:12:41 - 00:13:13] SPEAKER_01: claramente es algo muy similar a lo que acabo de hablar. ya sabes, si a tu hijo le está yendo bien y gana el torneo de lucha y dice: "sí, gané el torneo de lucha", ¿y qué quieren hacer? quieren comer una pizza de triple queso, ¿verdad? quiero decir, quieren volverse locos, y tú como líder y como, como padre y como amigo, necesitas decir: "oye, hombre, lo hiciste bien, eso fue increíble, tuviste un gran día, pero empecemos a pensar un poco en la próxima semana también. ¿qué tal si solo comemos unas cuantas rebanadas de pizza?" como recompensa. y esto va contigo mismo también, ya sabes, haces

[00:13:13 - 00:13:48] SPEAKER_01: algo, tienes un éxito y dices: "oh, eso, eso es genial, pero toda gloria es efímera y necesito volver al trabajo". y mira, ¿la gente se excede con eso a veces? sí, absolutamente, a veces la gente, no se detienen y celebran en absoluto, y esos son el tipo de personas que creo que se queman eventualmente porque nunca dicen: "oye, eso fue increíble, tuvimos una gran victoria, genial, choca esos cinco". así que creo que, ya sabes, como líder, como amigo, como padre, como cónyuge, quieres ser capaz de modular eso, ayudar a modular eso. no lo cierres, ya sabes, tu hijo sale de la colchoneta de lucha

[00:13:48 - 00:14:18] SPEAKER_01: para chocar esos cinco y dices: "¿podrías haber ganado por más?". no, no estoy hablando de eso, o tu hijo sale de la colchoneta después de perder y dices: "¿te lo mereces?". no, tienes que ser el contra, el contrapeso de las emociones que tienen otras personas. cuando haces un buen trabajo como líder, como amigo, como cónyuge o lo que sea, estás haciendo un buen trabajo como contrapeso. creo que esa es una buena manera de verlo, quieres proporcionar algo de equilibrio para las personas para asegurarte de que no se descontrolen. y notas cuando las personas tienen una caída, es normalmente

[00:14:18 - 00:14:52] SPEAKER_01: porque se han rodeado de personas que no hay contra, no hay contrapeso. ya sabes, si fueras mi mejor amigo y yo, ya sabes, salí a beber anoche y la pasé muy bien y festejé toda la noche y conocí a una chica y tú dices: "diablos, sí, hagámoslo de nuevo esta noche", eventualmente, ¿dónde vamos a estar? vamos a estar en la alcantarilla en algún lugar. pero si dices: "oye, amigo, eso fue increíble, pero oye, recuerda que tenemos escuela el lunes, ¿verdad?", y me traes de vuelta, eso es... tenemos que encontrar equilibrio en la vida y en nosotros mismos, y luego tenemos, tanto como podamos, proporcionar equilibrio para otras personas porque las personas son emocionales y se dejan atrapar por lo que están haciendo, y quieres

[00:14:52 - 00:15:26] SPEAKER_00: quieres mantener a las personas equilibradas. parece que tienes un sentido muy fuerte de contexto y de ti mismo. ¿hubo algo en tu crianza, tus padres, o fue simplemente cómo siempre te imaginaste a ti mismo como: "sí, este soy yo"? porque de hecho creo que muchas personas no tienen un sentido firme de sí mismas o su sentido de sí mismas es tan rígido que solo pueden operar en esta estrecha trinchera de un dominio de la vida y terminan muy, muy aisladas. en cuanto a dónde me convertí en mí,

[00:15:27 - 00:15:59] SPEAKER_01: de hecho, tengo que dar mucho crédito a la música que crecí escuchando y a la actitud que teníamos en ese entonces, escuchar música hardcore, ser capaz de defenderse contra lo que otros decían, que es lo que estás haciendo cuando estás en esa escena, y toda la naturaleza de "hazlo tú mismo" de eso. "oye, podemos simplemente hacer esto nosotros mismos, podemos hacer que esto suceda para nosotros mismos, no necesitamos a nadie más, podemos hacer esto", y esa actitud hardcore y mantenerse al lado de tus amigos y defenderse

[00:15:59 - 00:16:31] SPEAKER_01: y meterse en peleas y, como, eso es lo que vas a hacer, esa es mi actitud. esa música es la banda sonora de mi vida, así que siempre tendría esa música sonando en mi cabeza. pero a tu pregunta, tenía algo dentro de mí que cuando escuché esa música por primera vez dije: "ok, aquí está". ya sabes, aquí está, esto es... ya sabes, escucho a los beatles, escucho a grateful dead, escucho a los rolling stones, escucho a quien sea y dices: "ok, eso está bien". pero cuando escuché música hardcore por primera vez

[00:16:32 - 00:17:02] SPEAKER_01: cuando escuché a cromags, cuando escuché a agnostic front, cuando escuché a bad brains, pensé que era, era simplemente parte de mí ya. soy como un niño viviendo en el bosque en connecticut, simplemente estoy escuchando lo que escucho. escucha las letras, escucha las letras de minor threat, escucha las letras y dices: "ok, este material, estoy de acuerdo con este material", y simplemente creo que ese tipo de cosas establecieron un dato en mi cabeza de estar bien con estar fuera, estar bien con decir no, estar bien con ser

[00:17:02 - 00:17:35] SPEAKER_01: un rebelde, estar bien con no seguir lo que todos los demás están haciendo. eso se volvió muy importante cuando estaba en el ejército y miraba lo que el liderazgo podría estar diciéndome que hiciera y podría pensar para mí mismo: "oye, eso no parece una buena idea", y tener los recursos para decir: "oye, jefe, no estoy seguro de que sea una buena idea", no para ser un idiota al respecto, sino solo para decir: "podría haber una mejor manera de lograr esto, ¿qué opinas de esto?" o "oye, jefe, ¿puedo hacerte una pregunta sobre eso?". así que creo que si tuviera que rastrearlo, ya sabes, tener el disco "my war" de black flag en mi tocadiscos durante, como,

[00:17:35 - 00:18:10] SPEAKER_01: un año y medio seguido, eso va a dejar una marca, hombre. y creo que dejó una marca en mí. ¿cuáles son tus fuentes de motivación? bueno, probablemente me has escuchado decir que la motivación no es algo con lo que voy a contar porque es solo una emoción que va a ir y venir, igual que sentirse feliz. te sientes feliz ahora mismo, tal vez no te sientas feliz en 15 minutos. te sientes triste ahora, tal vez no te sientas triste en 15 minutos. te sientes motivado ahora mismo, tal vez no te sientas motivado en 15 minutos, por lo tanto, no puedo depender de ella, así que no voy a apostar solo por estar

[00:18:10 - 00:18:28] SPEAKER_01: motivado porque realmente no me importa. así que las acciones diarias que tomo no son por motivación, son solo por disciplina. como dije antes, no voy a levantarme y pasar por un gran debate sobre: "bueno, realmente, ¿tengo ganas de hacer esto?". no, no tengo ganas de

[00:18:28 - 00:18:43] SPEAKER_00: hacer esto, pero no importa, así que simplemente voy a hacerlo. tú has dicho varias veces hoy, en particular, en lugar de buscar fuentes de cosas fuera de ti, como un trabajo o una relación, que son todas geniales, pero como fuentes de energía o motivación o inspiración, usar la acción como una acción positiva.

[00:18:43 - 00:19:16] SPEAKER_01: como fuente de energía. sí, y la acción positiva es cuando tienes que enfrentarte a algo, cuando hay algo a lo que tienes miedo, ¿verdad? entra en ello, muévete hacia ello. no resuelves problemas huyendo de ellos, los resuelves moviéndote hacia ellos y descubriendo qué está pasando. luego podríamos seguir todo el camino de hablar sobre el enfoque indirecto, que es una teoría de combate en la que creo completamente, pero también se aplica a, ya sabes, interactuar con otras personas. si tengo un problema con alguna otra persona, pienso para mis adentros: "bueno, tengo un problema con

[00:19:16 - 00:19:50] SPEAKER_01: ti, voy a ir a confrontarte por ello", y esa podría no ser la mejor solución, de hecho, probablemente no sea la mejor solución para mí ir a confrontarte con el problema porque ahora vamos a tener una confrontación. podría ser mejor para mí tomar un enfoque indirecto y no confrontarte, sino participar en una conversación contigo sobre algo que tal vez sea adyacente al problema que tengo, y luego, eventualmente, eso construye nuestra relación hasta un punto en el que comienzas a reconocer: "oh, apuesto a que jocko siente algo sobre esto", y podemos avanzar hacia una solución en lugar de que yo intente darte un puñetazo en la cara con alguna verdad que creo frente a la verdad

[00:19:50 - 00:19:59] SPEAKER_01: que tú crees y ahora estamos involucrados en un combate, y eso es malo, va a haber bajas. preferiría tomar un enfoque indirecto y construir una relación donde podamos resolver problemas de una

[00:19:59 - 00:20:30] SPEAKER_00: manera más positiva. también te escuché decir algo antes que todavía sigue en mi mente, que es, ya sabes, no pensar demasiado y has hablado sobre la tercera persona del yo. me encantaría hablar un poco más sobre esto, aunque es un tema que ya has profundizado antes, y en particular el tema de la meditación. ¿meditas? y si no haces una especie de meditación estándar, ¿hay momentos a lo largo de tu día en tu rutina en tu semana donde, tal como estoy describiendo esto, se mapea a algo que se siente como monitoreo abierto o meditación enfocada? sí, así que no, no

[00:20:30 - 00:21:00] SPEAKER_01: medito. nunca, no creo haber meditado realmente ni por un segundo en mi vida y nunca he intentado hacerlo. dicho esto, si el objetivo es dar un paso atrás y separarse de lo que está sucediendo, hago eso todo el día, todos los días. y entonces, ya sabes, eso es algo de lo que he hablado, es algo que intenté enseñar, ya sabes, intenté enseñar a los jóvenes líderes seal a no dejarse atrapar por lo que sucede justo frente a ellos, sino a dar un paso atrás, separarse de la situación, separarse

[00:21:00 - 00:21:36] SPEAKER_01: de sus emociones en el campo de batalla. quiero que las personas sean capaces de ver más ángulos, más maniobras, más oportunidades, más de lo que el enemigo podría hacer, más perspectiva. y va a lo que decía antes sobre la turba, ser capaz de ser parte de un equipo, parte de la turba, parte de la pandilla, pero aún así tener la capacidad de dar un paso atrás, separarse de eso y evaluar cuál es la mejor manera para que este equipo avance. para mí es el verdadero superpoder de la vida. y ya sabes, esto se remonta a cuando empiezas a hablar de personas que están teniendo, pasando por luchas en la vida, ¿verdad? y he descrito esto

[00:21:36 - 00:22:15] SPEAKER_01: antes como, ya sabes, si te estoy mirando y estás, estás en un mal estado, ¿verdad? estás deprimido, estás triste, estás deprimido, no logras hacer nada y te estoy mirando desde afuera y, y estoy pensando para mí, veo esta nube de tormenta alrededor de tu cabeza. todo lo que ves, sin importar en qué dirección mires, es tormenta, todo lo que ves es oscuridad. estoy afuera, estoy mirando: "oye, hombre, este tipo tiene una gran educación, está sano, tiene un buen equipo a su alrededor, tiene todas estas cosas a su favor", pero tú, en ese estado, literalmente no puedes ver nada más que la oscuridad de la tormenta. y eso es

[00:22:15 - 00:22:49] SPEAKER_01: lo que da tanto miedo cuando las personas entran en ese modo, es que puedes mirar, yo puedo mirarlo desde afuera y ser como: "andrew, solo tienes que moverte cuatro pies hacia adelante y vas a haber superado esto", y sin embargo, tú, podrías escucharme decir eso y dices: "no, jocko, estoy mirando hacia adelante, no hay nada más que oscuridad". así que ayudar a las personas a avanzar, tomar acción y ser capaces de obtener esa perspectiva, separarse y salir de sí mismos, salir de sus propias cabezas. ya sabes, tim ferriss dijo: "sal de tu cabeza, entra en tu cuerpo". esa es una forma de hacerlo. tomar acción, ir a hacer cosas. es muy aterrador, y estoy seguro de que has tenido

[00:22:49 - 00:23:20] SPEAKER_01: esta experiencia en la que estás hablando con alguien que conoces y lo estás mirando diciendo: "oye, hombre, no, va a estar bien", como puedes ver claramente que lo que sea que les esté molestando y arrastrándolos ahora, puedes ver claramente, ya sabes, muchas veces es una relación, ¿verdad? la chica, el chico que tienen, los dejaron, y dices: "oye, hombre, esa persona era un desastre de todos modos, estás mejor sin ellos", y no pueden calcular eso, están atrapados allí. o tal vez es la escuela a la que no entraron o el trabajo que no consiguieron, y se envuelven tanto en eso que no pueden, ellos

[00:23:20 - 00:23:53] SPEAKER_01: no pueden salir de esa tormenta. es una sensación tan impotente. y por eso, intentar interactuar con las personas e intentar darles a las personas ese superpoder de desapego donde pueden dar un paso atrás y decir: "¿sabes qué? tienes razón, hombre, esa chica, ella no era quien yo realmente pensaba que era, debería seguir adelante". sí, la solución a tu problema no se encontrará en el problema, no se encontrará allí dentro. tienes que salir del problema para que puedas mirarlo, hacer una evaluación y puedas evaluar cómo resolver el problema o si necesitas resolver el problema o no. así que el desapego es un superpoder.

[00:23:53 - 00:24:00] SPEAKER_00: ¿cuál es tu proceso para participar en el desapego o para desvincularte? reconocí, como en un momento,

[00:24:00 - 00:24:33] SPEAKER_01: qué era el desapego y qué útil era en una plataforma petrolífera haciendo una misión de entrenamiento. todo mi pelotón está en una línea de escaramuza mirando una gran área de la plataforma petrolífera que se supone que debemos despejar. nuevamente, no es combate, esto es en los años 90, no está pasando nada, solo estamos haciendo entrenamiento y estoy de pie en esta línea de escaramuza y, por cierto, soy el tipo más joven y con menos antigüedad en mi pelotón y estoy allí parado mirando por la mira de mi arma y estoy esperando a que alguien haga una llamada y nos diga qué hacer. y espero durante cinco segundos y espero durante 10 segundos y espero durante

[00:24:33 - 00:25:06] SPEAKER_01: 20 segundos y nadie dice nada y estamos esperando a que un líder en mi pelotón haga una llamada para decirnos qué hacer, decirme qué hacer. y finalmente, después de, como, 30 segundos, que parecen una eternidad, no puedo soportarlo más. doy un paso fuera de la línea de escaramuza, miro a mi izquierda, miro a mi derecha, y lo que veo es que todos los demás tipos en mi pelotón están mirando por su arma, lo que significa que su campo de visión es pequeño. es como un campo de visión de 20 grados, estás mirando por la mira de tu arma o el sitio de tu arma, y así de grande es su campo de visión. estoy mirando, estoy pensando:

[00:25:06 - 00:25:36] SPEAKER_01: "oh, ahí está mi comandante de pelotón, está mirando por la mira del arma. ahí está mi jefe de pelotón, está mirando por la mira de su arma. ahí está mi suboficial principal, está mirando por la mira de su arma. ahí está mi comandante de pelotón asistente, está mirando por la mira de su arma". así que todos en el pelotón están mirando por la mira de su arma, lo que significa que todos tienen un campo de visión muy estrecho. bueno, cuando doy un paso atrás y miro a mi izquierda y miro a mi derecha, ¿adivina qué tipo de campo de visión tengo? tengo uno masivo. puedo ver toda la escena y puedo ver exactamente qué es lo que tenemos que hacer. mira, como chico nuevo, necesitas mantener tu boca

[00:25:36 - 00:25:41] SPEAKER_01: cerrada. No dices nada. Y estoy pensando, bueno, pero nadie más está diciendo nada.

[00:25:41 - 00:26:11] SPEAKER_01: Así que reúno todo el coraje que puedo. Y abro mi boca y digo: "mantengan a la izquierda, despejen a la derecha", que es una llamada táctica básica. Esta no es una maniobra de genio de nivel de patente. Es solo una llamada normal que hacer en una situación en la que estábamos. Digo: "mantengan a la izquierda, despejen a la derecha". Y espero recibir una especie de bofetada, que me digan: "cállate, chico nuevo". Pero, en cambio, todos simplemente repiten la llamada. "mantengan a la izquierda, despejen a la derecha. mantengan a la izquierda, despejen a la derecha". Llegamos a la cima de la plataforma petrolífera, lo que significa que despejamos todo. Estamos en la plataforma de helicópteros en la parte superior y vamos a un informe. Y ahora estoy esperando,

[00:26:11 - 00:26:15] SPEAKER_01: ok, ahora me van a decir: "oye, ¿qué estabas haciendo? necesitas mantener tu boca cerrada".

[00:26:16 - 00:26:21] SPEAKER_01: Y en cambio, el jefe de pelotón dice: "oye, jocko, buena llamada en la cubierta del sótano allá abajo".

[00:26:22 - 00:26:26] SPEAKER_01: Y yo estaba como: "sí, eso es correcto". Pero luego pensé para mí mismo: "espera un segundo".

[00:26:26 - 00:26:59] SPEAKER_01: Si soy el tipo más joven y menos experimentado en este pelotón, ¿por qué pude ver lo que necesitábamos hacer y hacer esa llamada? ¿Por qué pasó eso? Y luego me di cuenta de que era porque di, di un paso atrás. Amplié mi campo de visión, lo que me permitió pensar con más claridad, porque en lugar de estar hiperenfocado y estrechamente enfocado, amplié mi rango de visión. Tomé un respiro antes de hacer mi llamada, ¿verdad? Tuve que tomar mi, tomar un buen respiro para hablar con claridad. Y me di cuenta de que dando un paso atrás y despegándome, pude ver infinitamente más

[00:26:59 - 00:27:30] SPEAKER_01: que incluso los tipos más experimentados en mi pelotón. Y comencé a hacerlo todo el tiempo. Y comencé a hacerlo en la guerra terrestre. Comencé a hacerlo en el combate urbano. Comencé a hacerlo en todos estos escenarios de entrenamiento táctico. Estos son solo entrenamiento. Esto es en los noventa. Comencé a hacer estos escenarios de entrenamiento y siempre me permitió ver lo que necesitábamos hacer. Luego comencé a hacerlo. Como cuando estaba teniendo conversaciones con personas, estoy teniendo una conversación con mi jefe de pelotón y puedo ver que está empezando a ponerse un poco rojo en la cara. Y estamos, estamos a punto de discutir sobre algo. Dije: "oh, espera un segundo". Doy un paso atrás, miro, y digo: "se está enfadando justo

[00:27:30 - 00:28:00] SPEAKER_01: ahora". Y es el jefe de pelotón. Y diría: "oye, ¿sabes qué, jefe? Eso suena bien. Déjame volver a revisar el plan o lo que sea". Y entonces comencé a hacer esto en mi vida normal, que era no dejarme atrapar por mis propias emociones, no dejarme atrapar por el tiroteo que estaba ocurriendo justo frente a mi cara, no dejarme atrapar por los detalles de lo que estaba sucediendo, sino en cambio, dar un paso atrás, separarme, mirar a mi alrededor, y luego puedes tomar una decisión mucho, mucho mejor. Ahora, escucha, si tú

[00:28:00 - 00:28:19] SPEAKER_01: eres la única persona en un tiroteo, va a ser más difícil para ti hacer eso. Porque tienes que estar enfocado en lo que sea que estés disparando. Pero cuando tienes 16 tipos o 20 tipos, todos están mirando en la misma dirección. Es muy fácil ser el tipo que da un paso atrás, mira a su alrededor, hace una llamada. Cuando enseño esto a las personas ahora, la mecánica de esto, dar un paso atrás.

[00:28:20 - 00:28:56] SPEAKER_01: Literalmente estás en, ya sabes, tú y yo estamos en una reunión. Hay un montón de personas, empieza a haber una discusión acalorada. Literalmente empujaré mi silla hacia atrás lejos de la mesa, cambiaré mi perspectiva, abriré, ampliaré mi campo de visión. La otra cosa, como en los equipos seal, no quieres sonar aterrorizado por la radio por un par de razones. Número uno, porque cuando entras en pánico por la radio, va a causar que otras personas entren en pánico. Número dos, si entras en pánico por la radio y suenas aterrorizado, todos se van a burlar de ti. Así que, ¿qué haría antes de presionar el botón de mi radio? Respirar. Y entonces, aquí estoy ralentizando manualmente mi respiración. Estoy ampliando mi campo de

[00:28:56 - 00:29:30] SPEAKER_01: visión. Así que, si estás en una reunión o estás en, ya sabes, estás en el estacionamiento del supermercado y alguien empieza a gritarte, da un paso atrás, respira, amplía tu campo de visión, sepárate de esas emociones

[00:29:30 - 00:29:40] SPEAKER_01: oh, he's not listening to me. Instead of me putting my chin down and put my hands like up, up to where I can put them in your face a little bit. No, I'm actually going to take a step back.

[00:29:40 - 00:30:18] SPEAKER_01: I'm going to say, put my chin up. It changes my perspective a little bit more, changes my visual perspective, just by changing the angle of my head. Take a step back, put my hands down. I'm not being in a defensive mood. I actually want to hear what you have to say. And if I start listening to what you have to say and not talking, it's very hard to be detached when you're talking. It's another key component. You want to detach, shut your mouth. I'm in a meeting in my companies. I'm not the one that's doing all the talking. In fact, I'm doing mostly listening. And that way I'm detached. I'm listening to what they have to say. I'm more capable of seeing what holes there are in their plans by not

[00:30:18 - 00:30:49] SPEAKER_01: moving my mouth, not talking. I'm listening. So those are some of the methodologies that I use and that I advise people to use in order to effectively start down the pathway of being able to detach in various scenarios. It applies to everything that we do. If you're having a conversation with your significant other and you start to see that they're getting frustrated about something. Now, look, if you're in the conversation, a hundred percent, you're going to get frustrated too. You're

[00:30:49 - 00:31:11] SPEAKER_01: going to get frustrated. They're frustrated. Next thing you know, you've got an emotional argument going on. Whereas if you take a mental step back and say, wait a minute, why are they frustrated right now? Oh, because I'm trying to solve their problem when really what they're looking to do is vent. Okay, got it. Let them vent. Okay, cool. Oh, that sounds horrible. You know, what do you think you're going to do? Instead of saying, well, if that's the problem, here's what you should do.

[00:31:11 - 00:31:21] SPEAKER_01: Because people are always looking for that. So yeah, this thing, this ability is, and it's something that can absolutely be trained. And that's what's cool about it. It can absolutely be trained.

[00:31:21 - 00:31:31] SPEAKER_01: It's not a natural gift. Some people will be better at it than others, but it's something that you can train. And I used to see guys develop it. And I see people develop it now in the business

[00:31:31 - 00:31:42] SPEAKER_00: world. Do you think there's value to doing things each day that suck a little bit or from time to time doing something that's, you know, puts one into a state of deliberate discomfort?

[00:31:43 - 00:32:00] SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, even in order to improve yourself, you got to impose some discipline on yourself, right? Just like you would develop your legs by doing squats and you would develop your back by doing pull-ups. I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions

[00:32:00 - 00:32:06] SPEAKER_00: of things that require you to be tougher. I just want to extend an enormous thank you.

[00:32:07 - 00:32:32] SPEAKER_00: You know, as a civilian, thank you for the work you did in the military, but also teaching people about the military. I think a lot of people don't realize what it's about at any level and learning about your experience there and what you've observed, bringing other people's experiences from the military more broadly is super important and sharing this and being able to entertain some of my scientific rifts. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There's plenty of people that have done

[00:32:32 - 00:33:02] SPEAKER_01: way more than I've ever done and, and sacrificed infinitely more than I ever sacrificed. So I'm, I'm thankful for being here. I know that you put all kinds of information and I, the same back at you, you know, I, I have greatly benefited from the information that you put out. And so I thank you as well and appreciate coming on here and appreciate you spreading the word about how people can be better yourself. So thanks for having me. I appreciate it, man. Let's do it again.